Episode 21: Allie Rowbottom
Allie Rowbottom Deep Dives the Writing & Publishing Processes for "Jello Girls" and "Aesthetica"
I’m so excited to have Allie Rowbottom on the show today! Allie is the author of the memoir/family history/cultural commentary Jello Girls, which I love, and the new novel Aesthetica, which is incredibly zeitgeisty in its subject matter and has been getting rave reviews. Not only is Allie Rowbottom a super hot lit queen who can string together a hell of a sentence, but she’s also really nice and generous with information in this interview. She shares a top-secret tip for writing good fiction, how she handled writing about her family, THE most thoughtful and honest takes on publishing, and more in today’s episode. Follow Allie on Instagram and Twitter @allierowbottom.
Listen to full episode :
TRANSCRIPT
Episode 21: Allie Rowbottom Deep Dives the Writing & Publishing Processes for "Jello Girls" and "Aesthetica"
[00:00:05] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I still remember that meeting. I still remember him being like, Well, I would want to read that book. And you think you can make 80 pages by the end of the summer? And honestly, like, that assignment changed my life because I was like, Oh my God, 80 pages. I don't think I've ever written 80 pages, but I went off with a goal and, you know, just hearing someone be like, I would want to read that book made me think, All right, I guess I'll write it.
[00:00:33] COURTNEY KOCAK That is today's guest, Allie Rowbottom, who I am so excited to have on the show. Allie is the author of the memoir slash family history slash cultural commentary Jell-O Girls, which I freaking love, and the new novel Aesthetica, which is incredibly zeitgeisty in its subject matter and has been getting rave reviews from people like, I don't know, The New York Times.
[00:00:58] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I think like looking back on it now. I really wanted to go deep on my own, like on my relationship with my body, my relationship with objectification, my relationship with like my mother's feminism versus my own and the pitfalls to both of them. You know, it just seemed to me from like the deeper I got into looking at Instagram and these girls and like their lifestyles and a lot of the ideology around like OnlyFans and that kind of stuff that like culturally, we'd love to punish and shame women for striving to embody the ideals that we've all been pumped with since birth.
[00:01:40] COURTNEY KOCAK Aesthetica is the nuanced feminist introspection on modern beauty that we deserve. And not only is Allie Rowbottom, a super hot lit queen who can string together a hell of a sentence, but she's also really nice and generous with information in this interview. She shares a top-secret tip for writing good fiction, how she handled writing about her family, and the most thoughtful and honest takes on publishing and more in today's episode.
[00:02:10] COURTNEY KOCAK There's nothing to writing. All you do is sit down at a typewriter and bleed.
[00:02:21] WOMAN'S VOICE (scream)
[00:02:21] COURTNEY KOCAK Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Kocak, and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors, agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
[00:02:40] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Hi, I'm Allie Rowbottom. I'm the author of the memoir Jell-O Girls and Aesthetica, a new novel from Soho Press.
[00:02:49] COURTNEY KOCAK When did you first identify as a writer?
[00:02:52] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I first identified as a writer probably when I got into my MFA program and started stretching my wings in workshop and, you know, figuring out that I had some talent that was worth pursuing.
[00:03:10] COURTNEY KOCAK I feel like you're a little rare because your mom was a writer, so you got to see it modeled a little bit.
[00:03:16] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah. I think that her version of being a writer almost kept me from identifying as a writer because she wasn't successful in any way, and she was so emotional about her work that it just especially when I was a teen, it looked like everything that I didn't want to be as—
[00:03:37] BOTH (laughter)
[00:03:37] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM You know, one's mother might in any way look, you know, like that. But as in terms of writing, I was just like, Ugh, no, thanks.
[00:03:46] COURTNEY KOCAK That's so funny. Okay. What's your all time favorite book?
[00:03:50] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Okay, impossible question. So I'll just name one. I'm going to say The Lover by Marguerite Duras.
[00:03:57] COURTNEY KOCAK What's the book?
[00:03:58] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM It's I guess if it were published in today's landscape, it would probably be called autofiction. It's technically a novel, but widely believed to be a memoir about the author's young girlhood and sexual awakening, essentially. And it's told in fragments. Very narratively slippery.
[00:04:23] COURTNEY KOCAK Oh.
[00:04:24] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM But very beautiful.
[00:04:25] COURTNEY KOCAK Interesting. Okay. What's your dream writing routine?
[00:04:29] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM My dream writing routine is I wake up. I get my coffee, I go to my desk and I have a project that I am so obsessed with that I'm like, ready to go first thing in the morning when I wake up.
[00:04:46] COURTNEY KOCAK And you write all day.
[00:04:48] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM And I write until I lose steam, ideally about 4 hours.
[00:04:53] COURTNEY KOCAK Oh, that's good. What's your real writing routine?
[00:04:58] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM It depends on whether or not I have a project that fits those criteria I just listed. And obviously it depends on what other sort of work related projects I have going on. Like if I'm working on someone's editing manuscript or whatever. But like my current writing routine is basically my dream writing routine. In as much as I get up, I go to my desk. I just moved not to this house that you see in the background. This is my godmother's place, but I just moved in L.A. and our house is kind of in shambles and I'll still just get up and go to my desk and, like, bang out a couple of pages.
[00:05:36] COURTNEY KOCAK Oh, I love that. That's awesome.
[00:05:37] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, I feel very fortunate.
[00:05:39] COURTNEY KOCAK What's one piece of writing that makes you jealous you didn't write it?
[00:05:43] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM The Glass Essay by Anne Carson.
[00:05:45] COURTNEY KOCAK Mmm. That's a good one. Do you want to explain for listeners who may not know?
[00:05:50] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Sure. And I should say that I don't wish that I had gone through the heartbreak.
[00:05:55] COURTNEY KOCAK Right.
[00:05:56] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM That became The Glass Essay, but similar to the lover, it's a fragmentary piece of writing. It is called an essay. It reads somewhat like a poem, and it is essentially a braided investigation of the writer's heartbreak. And in with her obsession with Wuthering Heights and her mother.
[00:06:22] COURTNEY KOCAK And her mother. What is it — craft wise or like poignancy — what draws you to it and makes you kind of envious?
[00:06:30] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I think it's the pacing, honestly, and the tone, obviously the language. But the way that information is delivered in that piece is so expertly done. I think that more than anything is what I aspire to be able to do in my own writing.
[00:06:53] COURTNEY KOCAK Allie and I are going to get into all about the writing and publishing process for Jell-O Girls and then Aesthetica. But first, I wanted to start with her graduate experience, since it seemed like that's where her first book, Jell-O Girls, was conceived.
[00:07:08] COURTNEY KOCAK Okay, so before we get into the book, let's kind of talk about when and why did you decide to get an MFA and what can you say about the CalArts experience?
[00:07:18] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Sure. I decided to get an MFA, having only recently heard about the MFA as a concept. I didn't study creative writing in college until the very last year of my studies at NYU, and then I sort of realized I could take creative writing classes, and that was revelatory. I was graduating in 2009, and there, you know, it was a really bleak economic landscape. And I just thought, like, I'm not going to get a job. I've heard about this thing called an MFA. It's essentially more school. I like school and I'm interested in pursuing writing. So I think I'll just apply. I didn't really know enough probably about what to look for in a school, though I, you know, I loved CalArts and I, I was interested in it like so-called experimental writing, writing similar to the Lover, The Glass Essay, which was kind of having a moment at that time, the fragment form. So I knew I wanted to go somewhere where I could explore that. And CalArts was one of like three or four programs on a list I found online of experimental programs. So I applied.
[00:08:32] COURTNEY KOCAK Was it what you thought it would be, and did it get you started on the project or definitely in your PhD, right?
[00:08:37] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah. In my Ph.D. was at my MFA, I was definitely writing material that would sort of lead up to Jell-O girls. The experience was wonderful. It was so much fun. I didn't learn a lot of like practical boots on the ground writing lessons, but it did give me a place, sort of, like I said at the beginning, like to build my confidence a little bit and just really go in on writing and talking about writing. And I think, you know, this remains true throughout my trajectory as a writer, but like the opportunity to read and critique other writers' work, I think is a really— It's a great way to learn what's going on in a piece of writing and just to really get clear with it for yourself. When I teach, I always have my students write letters. It's just a really helpful way to sort of think about work. But I mean, yeah, CalArts was wonderful. I worked with Maggie Nelson there. That changed my life, and she really helped me with what I was working on, which was like a fragmentary thesis. I think it was like 80 or 90 pages when I presented it as my thesis. So I guess it could have been like a really small book, but it wasn't quite ready. I used it to apply to Houston, where I got my Ph.D.
[00:10:00] COURTNEY KOCAK Then you applied to Ph.D. at University of Houston right away after MFA — was that how it went?
[00:10:06] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, I was still in my MFA, and again, I was a little like, Shit, what do I do? And the general sort of buzz around that time was that, like, contrary to popular belief that MFA was not a terminal degree, you couldn't teach with an MFA. Nobody was getting jobs with their MFA degree. And I was, you know, fortunate enough to be— I was a year behind my now-husband in that program, Jon Lindsey, and I watched him graduate and then try to find a job with his MFA and it was just not happening. And he had to go work for his dad. And I was like, Wow, I really I think I'll just like, see if I can get paid to do five more years of school. And that's what Houston gave me. And it was, you know, it was awesome. It was really great.
[00:10:55] COURTNEY KOCAK So Jell-O Girls: A Family History. Can you explain what the premise is and kind of how it got started?
[00:11:02] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah. So as I said, I had written this sort of primer to Jell-O girls at CalArts, which was just honestly, it became like an essay, but it was about a particular summer that I spent with my mom, right before I moved to California and went to CalArts, taking care of her as she recovered from a really gnarly surgery on her liver. And that experience had been so harrowing to me. I think I was just really trying to like, work it out on the page. So fast forward to Houston. I'd been in the program maybe like a year and a half, two years, and those first two years I was teaching so much, I was slammed. I was taking a full life literature course load, so very little time to write creatively, and I was producing short, fragmented essays that were just sort of very dreamy, but they didn't ultimately, like, go anywhere. And it was coming time to think about what I wanted my dissertation to be. And I met with my faculty mentor, Mat Johnson, who is a wonderful writer and he's a great teacher. And he's also like, he was at that time particularly great for me because he was a very like narrative... I don't want to say like conventional, but like just sort of bread and butter's awesome narrative novelist. And as I said, I was like in the dream world. And he was very like, I think that like.
[00:12:38] COURTNEY KOCAK Pulled you out of the clouds.
[00:12:38] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah. He was like, This is great. You can write a sentence. Good. Can we, like, figure out how to take this to the next place? And do you have any ideas for something that can sustain, like a book-length project? And the only thing that I could think of really was this, like, familial tie to Jell-O, which I really didn't know much about, but I knew about an episode that sort of serves as a thematic chord in Jell-O Girls, which is this outbreak of mass psychogenic illness among a group of girls in a small town in upstate New York called LeRoy, where my mom had grown up and where her extended family had bought the patent to Jell-O from its inventor. And I thought, like, okay, there's a lot of material there. Not to mention the fact that my mom has been trying to write a book about this for years, for almost my entire life. So that's interesting. Like her, essentially her failure to do so was interesting to me and her illness and how it connected to the girls and her upbringing. So like, that was the only thing I could think of. And I just sort of pitched it to Mat and he was like, I still remember that meeting. I still remember him being like, Well, I would want to read that book. And you think you can make 80 pages by the end of the summer? And honestly, like, that assignment changed my life because I was like, Oh my God, 80 pages. I don't think I've ever written 80 pages, but... I went off with a goal and, you know, just hearing someone be like, I would want to read that book made me think, All right, I guess I'll write it.
[00:14:16] COURTNEY KOCAK Oh, that's awesome. Okay. So I mean, how did it go from there? Like, oh, and I guess important question, just that I'm very curious about. Your mom's memoir was like a guide to you, from what I understand.
[00:14:34] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yes.
[00:14:34] COURTNEY KOCAK How did you feel about the writing? Like, were you tempted to do other things with it? Like use more of it or... I guess I'm just thinking of your thought process about how you were going to use it.
[00:14:47] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Okay. That's a great question. I, I was honestly, I think I was a little afraid of her memoir and there were like so many drafts of it. It's hard to think of it as like one book to me because she wrote it. I mean, she wrote it from so many different perspectives and standpoints. It was just constantly trying to get it right. I remember once I was like really working off of that book, like using it— I used it as sort of like a timeline and as a way to like... I don't know, understand what was going on in her life at during periods that I wasn't alive for. And like the writing I felt was so sort of unbounded and like messy and emotional more than anything, which is how she was.
[00:15:40] COURTNEY KOCAK (laugher)
[00:15:41] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM And in the best way. But like that, I was very like, Oh man, I don't want this to sort of infuse itself into my work. I want to write something that's like a bit more restrained. So that was definitely a concern.
[00:15:54] COURTNEY KOCAK That's so interesting. I think you did write a very balanced, levelheaded take on it that's still like, so poignant.
[00:16:02] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Thank you.
[00:16:03] COURTNEY KOCAK But I just was curious from the few sentences you pulled in, I was like, I wonder what else is in there?
[00:16:08] BOTH (laughter)
[00:16:10] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM You know, I kept. I kept. So it's all like hard copy material. I do have a computer of hers where I think there's stuff on it, but I haven't like... I keep meaning to get someone to, like, take all the material and put it on an external drive. But like, yeah, I still have boxes and boxes of her writing, and it's like, What do I do with this now? Like, obviously I've made something out of it, but I'm not going to throw it out. I have to keep it. I don't know why. Maybe someday I'll go back and want to read it again, just like for fun? But you know, now, also, I'm glad I didn't put more of her actual prose in the book, because I think that an issue that I've had just sort of emotionally for myself in the aftermath of publishing that book is feeling like I wrote this book for her. I told this story that she wanted to tell, but just couldn't find a way to tell. And I'm glad I did that. But in a way, the book is like technically my memoir, but it's almost entirely her story. And I think that much of my life was like sort of lived — as most kids probably experience this — but like lived in the shadow of like her trauma and her story. So I think that if I had put more of her writing in, I would feel even more like sort of overshadowed by her in a way. And I think like, well, one of the great things about writing is now I got that book out and I can like, do other stuff.
[00:17:43] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah. Was it cathartic?
[00:17:45] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Uh, no, I wouldn't say. I mean, I like, I, I think there's a satisfaction for me. I think satisfaction would be the right word that comes with having something that you really, really want to say. Something that, like, takes a book's length to say. And saying it. There are things about Jell-O girls that if I were writing it now, I would absolutely do different. But like ultimately I said the thing, so that's satisfying. But it didn't feel cathartic at all. I didn't feel like, Oh, now I've said it and I'm unburdened and whatnot. It was actually quite the opposite for me. And I think like in some ways, like the expectation that I had that the book would be cathartic and that I could just like release my relationship with my mom and like, release my grief over her death because, you know, when Jell-O girls came out, it was still fairly fresh and it just didn't work that way at all. Sadly.
[00:18:49] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah. Okay. So let's rewind just a little bit back into how it kind of evolved starting in your Ph.D. Program, like what came out of those 80 pages and then how did it iterate from there?
[00:19:03] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM That's a great question. Yeah, it was kind of a total mess for a while because like, even though I was like, okay, I'm going to write this book and Mat's guiding me and he has like the knowledge of how to write a compelling narrative. I still felt very invested in the book being dreamy and sort of slippery, and I didn't think that it was the right material for fragments, which was like my go to for a long time. This was actually, honestly, like, aside from scholarly work, like academic writing, it was one of the first things I wrote that wasn't in fragments, I want to say. So, yeah, like I wanted it to be super dreamy. I wanted it to be like Lidia Yuknavitch's The Chronology of Water dreamy? And it just was not coming together. Like, those first 80 pages were great. They were mostly set in the past. There was a lot of sort of fluid movement in and out of time. But because this book covers so much time.
[00:20:08] COURTNEY KOCAK Mm hmm.
[00:20:09] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM After maybe a first full ish draft, I started to realize that, like, and just getting feedback also from mostly from my professors, I was like, Okay. This is not going to work this way. It's just not working. And I graduated from Houston with a book like that. It was still very like dreamy and I knew I needed to do something to shore it up a bit. And it was actually from talking to an agent who was interested, who I didn't end up working with, but she was like, I think you should make it more like... Make it more like Cheryl Strayed's Wild.
[00:20:47] COURTNEY KOCAK Ahhh.
[00:20:47] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM And I was like, okay, that book is more commercial than what I had envisioned for myself. But when I just picked it up and looked at it, it's a very simple structure. It's one chapter in the past, one chapter in the present, I think. I think I'm right with that. And so where the Jell-O girls isn't like that, it is one chapter of like critical Jell-O history information and then one chapter of like personal history information. And when I started to restructure the material, I had that way I saw that the personal and the cultural histories were conversing with each other in almost like a magical way, like they were just lining up so neatly. So, you know, after I figured that out, the book just came together in a very quick sequence. Restructuring can be like that, I think. And like a lot of the time when people say, like, you know, just write it out and let it be bad and messy, what they're saying is like because you can go in later and like, gather that information up and put a structure almost over it like a cookie cutter or something. And like in some ways, like at least with a book like Jell-O Girls, I think that a more conventional structure allows what the book is really trying to say to be said in a clear and sort of resounding way where otherwise it might get buried.
[00:22:13] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah, totally. I feel like some inventive stuff still lives in like some of the short chapters where you just pop in and you get like just the little taste that you need of history at that moment. So, I mean, I love doing that kind of research. How did you approach the Jell-O history research? And I know you took a trip, but how did that all come together?
[00:22:36] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, I mean, most of the research was from books that were, you know, already written that gave it to me in such a way. There's like a great book. The author, Carolyn Wyman, even blurbed Jell-O girls, which I was, like, so thrilled about. But she has this, like, fun, almost like picture book of Jell-O history. But it's like, full of factoids and stuff like that. That book was really helpful. Perfection Salad by Laura Shapiro was also really helpful. So, yeah, and just like sleuthing around on the Internet, honestly. But yeah, I mean, that stuff, it's hard to remember, but I spent like months and months and months just like reading. And I just I remember having so many aha moments with that. But most of it honestly came once I had graduated Houston, like the Jell-O history pumped itself up quite a bit in later drafts of the book. Once I realized, too, that there was this like really wonderful connection between the real women whose lives I was following and the history of Jell-O. The research trip that I took to LeRoy was honestly like, I just remember being like, I knew that, I knew all that. Like, we toured the Jell-O museum, and I, I was like, Oh, yeah, I already know all this. I still remember having that feeling about it. But like what it wound up being more productive with was talking to my mother's brother, who she was estranged from, and who I don't have a close relationship with at all. But I felt like... I felt like I needed to talk to him. And I don't even remember why, honestly. Like there's a way in which, like, I could have cut him out of the book entirely and that might have made my life easier. But yeah, since he was in it, I felt like I should talk to him. And we had, like, the briefest conversation.
[00:24:38] COURTNEY KOCAK Did he know what you were doing?
[00:24:40] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM He knew I was writing about LeRoy and Jell-O, but he... He did not know the angle that the book was going to take.
[00:24:47] COURTNEY KOCAK (laughter)
[00:24:47] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I think he had in mind a very different book.
[00:24:53] COURTNEY KOCAK He's not what I would have written.
[00:24:55] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah. No, it was honestly like, I can't really honestly share much about this. But in the aftermath of the book's publication, I do remember one thing he said to me, and he was not happy in general, but he said, like, your mother would have loved this book. And he meant it as a... You know, a negative. And I was like, yeah, she would've. Thank you for that compliment. I know you don't mean it that way, but like, thank you.
[00:25:23] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah. I thought including him was brilliant, especially after... It was like you talk to him almost right after that fucked up situation with your mom. No spoilers. Sorry, guys, you gotta read it. Okay. So, yeah, I guess on that note, like you're writing about your family, you're writing about your mom, you're writing about your now-husband, some of the most important relationships in your life, including your dad, which I saw in your author's note, like he came to the table with you and like, really... I guess you guys had some conversations about this. So what was your philosophy on writing about your family? And, you know, did you learn anything from it?
[00:26:00] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, my philosophy was very like— and I think part of this was just not having a lot of experience with publication on sort of like a large scale. But my experience was very like, I'm going to do what I want and like, I'm going to do what's best for the work. And people can get on board or not. But at least I will have been honest. And I like I admire that standpoint now and I and in some ways, like I still feel that way, but I did at least... Well, that's not even true. I was about to say, like I did retire from writing about my dad with Jell-O Girls, but I didn't. So I can't even say that. I still think that you have to write what it is you need to write and like you hope that people will understand. A lot of the time, especially when people aren't writers, they don't understand.
[00:26:58] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah.
[00:26:59] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM And that's just— unfortunately, that's like part of the writing life as I see it. I mean, as with all things like with my dad, I think he was really, really hurt by Jell-O Girls. And I think that, you know, whether or not that makes, you know, so many people who read the book are like, what he's barely in it. He's very hard person to read in this way or to understand in this way. But like, maybe in some ways, his absence from the book was hard for him. When we had those big like table talks about the book. You know, he was so upset after reading an early copy of it. So upset he was— you know, he was apoplectic. So I was like, really guarded when we sat down at the table and like, really anticipating going like, line by line with him and negotiating. But when we did sit down, it actually turned out that he wanted to tell me stories from his own life that really had nothing to do with Jell-O Girls. And he's like incredibly secretive. So it was sort of a... An amazing moment in time that he opened up to me and shared. Honestly, like a lot of TMI situations, but also like, you know, interesting stuff about his life that maybe like would never fit in Jell-O Girls, but that he just wanted to tell me. So, all to say, like sometimes I think that when people are hurt by nonfiction writing that includes them or it doesn't include them. It has to do with not feeling seen in like a fundamental way. And like, this is my memoir about my experience. It's not really my job to depict my father's like emotional internal landscape.
[00:28:47] COURTNEY KOCAK Right, right.
[00:28:47] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM That would be his job if he wanted to write a memoir. But like, I guess what I'm saying is I think that people really want to feel seen, and sometimes work accomplishes that for them and sometimes it doesn't.
[00:28:58] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah, and I think I mean, I'm not saying this about your dad, but just more generally. And what I know from my own experience is sometimes when you react that strongly, it's because it touched a nerve and you were like, I am like that. So...
[00:29:16] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah.
[00:29:16] COURTNEY KOCAK There's that.
[00:29:18] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Well, I still remember, like, honestly, the one wording that my dad wanted to change was that at some point in the book, when I'm talking about his role in my childhood, I say that he was a day trader. As in, like, that was what he was doing, he was day trading stocks. He was like day traders, like a dirty word. I would like you to say investor or something like that. And I was like, okay, fine, that's no big deal. After all of this sort of turmoil, that was the one change he wanted. So I always find that kind of funny.
[00:29:56] COURTNEY KOCAK That is hilarious. Okay. Well, do you think you will write another– Your next piece was a novel. Do you think you'll write another memoir?
[00:30:06] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I don't know. Like, I. I think after this next book comes out, I have a project that is a novel started, and that's where I almost positive all of my, like, emotional energy wants to go right now, but I don't know. Obviously, none of us know what's going to happen in our life, but there are certain experiences I predict I will want to write about from a nonfiction perspective. I can think of two. So yeah, probably to be honest.
[00:30:45] COURTNEY KOCAK Let's talk publishing for Jell-O Girls. When did you feel like it was ready enough and was there a querying process or did you know people from your programs? How did it go from there?
[00:31:00] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I love these questions. These are good things for people to hear about. So I had graduated my program at Houston. I had the draft still in its dreamy state, and I was talking just a little bit to this one agent that I had met through like a meet and greet at the Houston program, and I was sort of waiting to hear back from her. I wasn't querying out with that. I didn't feel like it was ready probably. But she had seen it because she had come to the program. So I was waiting to hear back about about that. And I got into Tin House as a scholar. So I was like, okay, I'll go to Tin House, you know, whatever, cool. And I brought Jell-O Girls with me to workshop in Jo Ann Beard's class, which was great. And I met some of my, like, dear, dear friends to this day in that class and at that workshop. But as I was like approaching going to Tin House, that agent wrote me back and was like, I think you should structure the book more like Cheryl Strayed's book, like I said. And I was kind of like, Aha! So I honestly, I was at Tin House during like lunch hour working on re ordering Jell-O Girls.
[00:32:11] COURTNEY KOCAK Hmm.
[00:32:12] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM And I just remember just being like, okay, I got to get this done. And I was like, just anxiously cloistered away working on reordering the book. And at that workshop, I also met the person who would become my agent. She's no longer my agent, but she was my first agent. And we met in one of those, like, agent speed dating things. And I almost didn't go. I was like, This is so lame. Nobody gets an agent this way. I don't know what I was thinking because I totally got my agent that way. And I just pitched her Jell-O Girls. I had a query letter that I had written, but I, again, hadn't been querying out or anything, and I just gave her the letter. And a couple of weeks after the workshop, she emailed me and she had sort of like checked me out like asked Maggie Nelson about me, asked a couple people, and they were like, Yeah, she's... She's fine. So I signed with that agent and we did a round of edits and then the book was ready to go out on submission.
[00:33:13] COURTNEY KOCAK And was that pretty close to where it landed? Like, did you go through another editing process once it got picked up?
[00:33:18] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, but very minor, like a couple sentences like, can you add a sentence here or there for clarification kind of edits.
[00:33:27] COURTNEY KOCAK Gotcha. Was there any fact checking involved?
[00:33:30] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM There was a legal read, which is different from fact checking, but nobody fact checks, which is bizarre.
[00:33:37] COURTNEY KOCAK I know, it's so weird.
[00:33:38] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM It's so weird. But yeah, because I expected that I was like really shocked, honestly, that they didn't do more to cover their butts. But there was a legal read which turned out, as I hinted to with stuff about my mom's brother, like really a fucking life-saver. Excuse my language, but yes, the lawyer for Little Brown went through the entire book and then we worked together on like, if there's any sections of the book that read like, wow, that's like a really interesting way of saying something. It sounds like you're talking around something that's because of the lawyer.
[00:34:14] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah. Or like It seems like they thought something.
[00:34:17] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yes, exactly.
[00:34:20] COURTNEY KOCAK I mean, I found out about Jell-O Girls after the fact, so I don't really remember the release. What was the reaction like?
[00:34:28] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM It's something I'm thinking about so much right now as I'm preparing to publish another book. So the book Jell-O Girls did really well in terms of like critical reception. I mean, I had no idea how to publish a book. And I think that like many writers, I was like, Great, I got this good deal from Little Brown. They're going to take care of everything for me and like... It's done. I don't have to do anything. But what I think now is that that was not true. They really marketed the book toward like a book club audience. And that might have been why, like you didn't hear about it. I mean, it wasn't really like billed as sort of like a literary nonfiction. It was much more so like Jell-O heir reveals family secrets. In retrospect, I would not have let them run with that angle. I would not do that now, You know, technically, yes, I am a Jell-O heir, but there's like hundreds of people who are heirs to Jell-O money because it's, you know, comes from a long way back and people marry and then procreate. And then there's like.
[00:35:34] COURTNEY KOCAK Right.
[00:35:34] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Tons of people. So.
[00:35:35] COURTNEY KOCAK And it's like, darker than that.
[00:35:37] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah.
[00:35:37] COURTNEY KOCAK Tone wise, I don't think that like, illustrates what's going on.
[00:35:41] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yes. And I think that if you look at like my Goodreads page, for example, you will see a lot of disappointment because what was expected of the book was like much lighter than what the book actually is. So a lot of people are like, What the hell is this? I expected a cookbook! You know, I guess like the publishing experience for Jell-O Girls was like, wonderful in so many ways. I was very fortunate to get reviewed in a lot of different publications and newspapers and like big places, there was like a spread in Oprah magazine, like, it was kind of unreal.
[00:36:15] COURTNEY KOCAK Amazing. Yeah.
[00:36:17] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM But at the same time, like, I this is such an interesting, like, niche example, but maybe writers can relate. Like, I just remember feeling so, like, but her that Franklin Park Reading Series wouldn't have me on. And I felt it was because and again, like, I don't know why, but it was like they think I'm just like some celebrity memoirist, but like, the book is like— the book is not that. And it just felt like there was a separation between what the book looked like and what it actually was, and it was hurting me. Now that is all like in the emotional realm. Looking at it now, I would be like, you have to like push if you want to get on this reading series or like you have to market yourself the way that you want to be marketed. You can't leave that up to other people. But at the time I was just like, I remember feeling so lucky that I had gotten this kind of book deal. I had really anticipated Jell-O Girls being on like an academic press. So... And some of this was compounded by the like, issues with writing about my family and my uncle and my dad in particular. But I was like— paralyzed by imposter syndrome, having terrible anxiety around the time the book came out and not feeling like I could advocate for what I needed or wanted with my publisher because I just had this feeling like they would like take my book deal away or something like that, which now I know would not have happened if I had advocated for myself. But it always strikes me as sort of a funny— a funny issue with this book in particular, because the book is incredibly feminist and very like we must use our voices as women. And yet in the publication process for it, I had a lot of trouble, you know, practicing what I preached and practicing my theory in that way. And that is an issue a lot of women have. I think with practicing feminism is like it's seems easier than it actually is.
[00:38:15] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah, totally. And it's also kind of like a double-edged sword, right? It's like you get a a big publisher, you know, they kind of brand it in a maybe more commercial way than you thought of it. And so you get commercial success, but you also, like or maybe it doesn't reach the audience that you intended quite as fast. It's very interesting.
[00:38:37] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Exactly. Yeah.
[00:38:38] COURTNEY KOCAK Okay. So then did you need a break after that? Did you pop right into your novel?
[00:38:44] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Um, I was like, manic after Jell-O Girls came out, and I actually wrote a different book than Aesthetica. I wrote another memoir. You know, earlier I was talking about what brings me to my desk and what makes writing ideal for me is to have a project I'm fully obsessed with. And one of the ways that I learned that is through writing this other book, which was a memoir about what didn't go into Jell-O Girls, which was basically like my childhood and teenager-hood as a competitive horse girl.
[00:39:21] COURTNEY KOCAK Oh.
[00:39:22] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM And it was such a emotional slog. It was like I had just done this big thing in publishing Jell-O Girls and I, like, went and wanted to just like, press more bruises. But that book, it sort of reached a point where I was like, This is not happening. And I ended up adapting it into a long essay that's in an anthology called Horse Girls that was edited by Halimah Marcus, and it came out... I don't remember when it came out. 2020? So after I sort of like put that book to the side, I was like, What do I really want to write? And the answer was fiction. And I had had the idea for Aesthetica for a while. And I felt like for a lot of the reasons that I sort of stated about Jell-O Girls and marketing and how it was presented, I wanted to, like, explore a different side of myself, both as a writer and also as like, you know, a personality and like Jell-O girls. And the way I was presented as the writer of that book is not me. So I was like, let me like, take control, and this is what I want to be writing about. I want to write something cool and current and like, really, like relevant to women of my generation and younger women. But like, specifically for them, like, I don't want a book that's going to be marketed to readers who it's for, but not as much as like this other readership.
[00:40:54] COURTNEY KOCAK Hey, Bleeders, I have two quick announcements before we get into Allie's latest book. One, I am throwing a party. Okay. I am throwing a meetup for L.A. area writers on Monday, January 30th. It's free. 100% free. You just have to RSVP. It's like I'm doing a little rhyme here. Anyway, I did this for podcasters in December and it was a blast. It was really fun and a great way to meet new people. There is an Eventbrite link in the description, so if you're going to be in L.A. on January 30th, please RSVP and join the party. Okay. And secondly, I'm going to need you to rate and review this podcast. It helps people find the show. It makes me feel good about myself. And crucially, it helps me with guest outreach. So, you know, I reach out to someone big and they're like, Oh, yeah, people listen to this show. Awesome. Sure, no problem. I'll come on the show. I'll give you all my secrets. So that's how we do it, guys. Rate and review the show. It helps us all out, and it takes you under a minute. So just give the show a five star rating and review on whatever listening platform you're on right now. Apple Podcasts, Castbox, whatever. With Spotify, it's super easy. Just go to the Bleeders feed and click the star in the upper lefthand corner and then click all five stars. Voila. You are done. Thank you so much. Okay, Now we are going to talk about Allie's new novel, Aesthetica, that came out in November and has received breathless coverage from everything I've seen and I'm happy to report that Aesthetica was recently featured in the Franklin Park Reading Series that Allie mentioned she was butthurt about with Jell-O Girls. So her wish has been fulfilled and you just love to see it. So feel listeners. What's the premise of Aesthetica?
[00:42:40] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Okay. So Aesthetic is again it's a novel. It's told in two timelines. In one, the protagonist Anna Wrey is a young aspiring Instagram model who comes to L.A. with big dreams of Insta stardom. And in the other, she is a future self, 35 years old, having become addicted to plastic surgery, looking to undergo a controversial, risky procedure called Aesthetica to undo all the past surgical procedures that she's had and return her to a more natural state, at least aesthetically. And the conflict of the book is really the conflict between her past and present self and the sort of keening to return to her past self and make the right choices, as if there are any.
[00:43:34] COURTNEY KOCAK Mm hmm. Where did the idea come from?
[00:43:37] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM So the idea... It came from. I like I'm trying to think about like if there was one beginning, I guess it if I had to say there was one beginning, it would be that in the wake of my mother's death, kind of like relatively early days for Instagram, like 2015, 2016, it wasn't as huge as it became. I got really into this one influencer in particular and I was like. Didn't understand the smoke and mirrors that was going on. I was grieving and comparing myself to her and she just looked so hot and like skinny and perfect in every way. And I like. I guess on some level I must have known that that was not all that there was. I didn't quite understand how literally Photoshopped she was or like, surgically altered, but I was like, you know, I know that like from my own experience as a young girl dealing with mother loss, as this girl was dealing with or, you know, like fear of losing my mother anyway. And like, the pressures of objectification and the imperative to self objectify as a means of gaining control. I felt like, okay, what would that be like in the era of Instagram when you're receiving all of this instant validation for your behaviors? So I related to her in that way. I felt sorry for her. I also felt like jealous of her and I just wanted to like, get in there and explore that world, I guess. I think like looking back on it now. I really wanted to go deep on my own... Like on my relationship with my body, my relationship with objectification, my relationship with like my mother's feminism versus my own, and the pitfalls to both of them. You know, it just seemed to me from like the deeper I got into looking at Instagram and these girls and like their lifestyles and a lot of the ideology around like OnlyFans and that kind of stuff that like culturally, we'd love to punish and shame women for striving to embody the ideals that we've all been pumped with since birth. And it just seems like the loser always ends up being a woman or women in these situations.
[00:45:58] COURTNEY KOCAK Mm hmm.
[00:45:58] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM No matter what road you take, the end result often is punishment and shame, especially in a public, on a public platform like Instagram. So I was like, okay, that's interesting. And I want to dig in on that. And it wasn't seeing a lot of work coming out around social media, definitely not around plastic surgery. And that remains true. And I just felt like the work that was coming out felt really like. Finger waggy. A lot of the time it was like, Oh, you're bad if you want to show your body on Instagram or whatever. And that just seemed so dated to me. So I wanted to find a way into this book and find a way to make this book relatively non-judgmental of its characters and also to take what seemed so like low-brow and elevate it to the high literary.
[00:46:48] COURTNEY KOCAK Awesome. So how did the writing and editing process go? How many drafts did you do and?
[00:46:54] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Oof. Well turned out I hadn't written a novel before, and it's different than writing a memoir. I probably wrote a draft and a half all the way through that I almost entirely scrapped. I was also like rushing quite a bit. I felt like I think a lot of writers do after their first book, like. I was so afraid of being a one hit wonder. I just wanted the chance to do it over and do it right this time. And by it I mean the publishing experience. And I just I felt like I need to, like, capitalize on the success of my first book now. And I'm it's just not happening for me. And I just I was so frustrated and so rushed and. So anyway, that first draft and a half was trash, but I think I was just figuring out how to write fiction and also like figuring out that I needed a plot that was going to hold up and facilitate the themes that I wanted to talk about, not just like any plot and not like a plot that seemed like exciting and sort of click baity. It needed to be a plot that felt true to me and my deeper interests. So yeah, it probably took a draft and a half or two drafts to get to that place. And then once I had the plot. It all came fairly quickly in terms of like I maybe did one one and a half more drafts before querying out with it because I was changing agents and then going from there.
[00:48:26] COURTNEY KOCAK What was different, you know, going from memoir? What were your big takeaways on what's different about fiction— writing fiction?
[00:48:35] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I think that like and I guess this is true for like it probably would have been true for writing a second memoir as well. I think for a lot of writers, the thing that's like the least natural to us continues to be a sticking point. For me, like I said, with Jell-O Girls, like structure was not a natural thing for me. Like it came only after someone else was like, Copy this person's structure, you know, just make it your own. I don't think that structure is the same as plot, but like maybe in in some ways, writing a novel felt extra hard because in addition to structure, I also needed to like, make up what happened. You know, in Jell-O Girls obviously, like I had to do a lot of like omitting of things and like pruning, but like the sequence of events was all there for me and in Aesthetica obviously nothing was there, I had to build it all. I don't think that writing a novel is harder than writing a memoir. I just think it's a different set of skills. And like, you know, for me, after writing that first shitty draft and a half, I had to, like, take a break. I had to read a lot of craft books and like, think about. Plot.
[00:49:51] COURTNEY KOCAK Mm hmm.
[00:49:51] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM So that's how it's different. And, you know, I think too, like, I really do try to and this is something that I would probably do differently in Jell-O Girls if I were writing it now. But like I do try to scene my nonfiction as much as possible. And by that I mean like write in scene instead of summary, as simple as it sounds and like. That said, you can get away with telling a lot more in a memoir than in a novel. And I just hadn't figured out exactly how to, like, translate, summarized material into scene material. So that first draft and a half of the Aesthetica, I was mostly told and I had to go back and be like, Wow, this is... All summery.
[00:50:35] BOTH (laughter)
[00:50:36] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I gotta, like, write some scenes.
[00:50:38] COURTNEY KOCAK That's really interesting. Was there anything you read in particular about plot that you were like, uncracked...
[00:50:45] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yes. Any students or or students of Jon's also will roll their eyes and laugh at this bit like we both love really like bread and butter, almost like schlocky craft writing books. Like I love The 90 Day Novel. I still use it.
[00:51:02] COURTNEY KOCAK I just started reading that.
[00:51:04] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Oh, good. Yeah. Okay, so I don't love the free writing, I have to say. Like, I find it really boring. I think it's good to do a little of, but like, you can kind of sap the joy out of it to me. But like, the structure questions in the back are golden. They're so good. They're very simple. But like, I use them even for short fiction. I use them for, sometimes for nonfiction, Like it's just good to like, sit down and ask yourself those questions. So I love that book. Jon in particular loves Story by Robert McPhee. It's a really like bedrock, kind of funny in some ways, like screenwriting tome, like how to write your screenplay. But a lot of the questions are like similar to a 90 Day Novel, like fundamental, like good things to ask yourself. You never get so good that you don't need to sit down and be like, okay, like, what is my character's deep want? Is my plot pushing them to a point where they need to like, do something about it and explore it. If that's not happening, you might want to go back and revise. It's just fundamental. And I think like especially right now, everyone's on their phones. People aren't reading the way they used to. It's just a fact. So like, make your book really readable with these, like five plot points. Another book that I really love and I don't remember the authors of this one. It's like a couple of people, but it's called Self-Editing for Fiction Writers. I almost like don't want to tell people this because the tips in that book are so good. It will take like it's like giving away a secret weapon. But yeah, that book is great. I highly recommend it.
[00:52:42] COURTNEY KOCAK Ooo, thank you.
[00:52:50] COURTNEY KOCAK So Aesthetica publishing and finding a new agent, what was that like?
[00:52:55] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Oh my God. This book, Aesthetica has been such an amazing learning experience for me as a person and like has coincided with some real, like, personal growth. So... One thing I didn't mention is that when I had that first shitty draft, I was in such a rush, I was like, okay, I mean, just like, I want to leave my current agent. We're just not in the same place anymore. Let me like, query out with this like first 20 pages of this garbage I've written and just like, see if I can get someone, you know, I was like, I need someone else. Like, whatever. So I queried out with that, like just 20 pages. And a couple of people wrote back and they were like, This is good. This is great. I want to I want to read more. And I was like, Oh my God, it's all happening. One agent in particular, like, got on the phone with me. She was like really pushing. And then I sent her the rest of the book and literally, like in order to send her the rest of the book, I was like writing chapters in order to send it to her. I was in a deranged place and like, stuff in my personal life was just crazy. Like, I was just like, not on top of my game. So I sent her this, like, just written draft and she wrote back to me after like a week and was like, I'm so sorry, like, this is not for me. Basically, like very nice. But receiving that email also coincided with my first day of therapy with the therapist who would become my therapist for several years. And I just like walked into her office and like had a complete breakdown. That was her first meeting of me. But looking back on it now, it was like, Oh, I just feel so much like tenderness for where I was at then. And just like the sort of mania that fell over me after publishing Jell-O Girls. And that agent was so nice about letting me off the hook nicely. So I then, you know, went home and got back to work and like really redid the book and took my time. And when I was finally ready to query out again, I queried out with it. It was very different than the book is now in as much as what was missing was as much emphasis on plastic surgery as there is now, which I wanted to add but didn't have like didn't feel ready to add. I kind of knew that agents weren't going to love that part of the book. And essentially like talked to a couple of people. But in the end, the only person who like really, really, really wanted to represent the book, I felt, was my now agent, Erin Harris, and I chose to query Erin because a friend of mine had almost signed with Erin and really, really loved her. And it was like she chose to go with someone else, but it was like completely like could have been either and she would have been happy. And like Erin was so helpful to me when it came to just sort of filling the book out. And she was like, I think we need to fill this book out. Like, do you have ideas for how to beef it up? And I was like, Yes, I do. I want to add this like crazy ass procedure and like, pump up the plastic surgery side of things and, like, really, like, go in on that. And I really expected her to be like, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not the direction. And she instead was like, Yeah, let's do it. Like, let's get weird. And I love her so much. And I'm really grateful for that because, like, that's what I did. I like wrote.
[00:56:44] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah.
[00:56:44] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Everything that I wanted to, I got as weird as I wanted. And like when we had gone through a couple edits of that material together, you know, despite some like terror on my part. And like a couple places where Erin was like, okay, I could see this being an issue, but I was like, Let's just do it. Let's go out with it. And so we did. And that was late spring 2021, I want to say.
[00:57:12] COURTNEY KOCAK And then how long was it out so long?
[00:57:16] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM So long. No. Well, you know, Jell-O Girls sold in like a week or something crazy and Aesthetica. took like a couple of months, I have to say, like. I just had this sense about the book. When we sent it out, I was like, This is going to be like, Nobody's going to want to buy this book. Even though I thought it was really good. And like, you know, I had Jon, my husband, read it before I sent it out. He thought it was really good. Erin thought it was really good. My writing group thought it was good, but it was like, I just know I don't know how to— Maybe that was just the anxiety. And so when it happened, I was like, See, I knew, but like, I don't know, I just had this sense about it. So it went out. After it was out for a week, I just started to be like, Yeah, it's happening. Nobody's going to want it. Then people started to pass, giving like really sort of vague reasons as to why. And that, you know, trickled in slowly. And I was just sort of like. At first really crushed. And then I started to feel creative and defiant about it.
[00:58:25] COURTNEY KOCAK Yes.
[00:58:26] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Almost as if like. Okay. If I wrote a book that everybody wanted, then I wouldn't have written the book that I want to write. And as much as I like what I see being published is not where I like align creatively a lot of the time. There's a lot of books that come out, you know, obviously every year, and a lot of them are not up to the standards that, like I hold for myself. All to say, like I started to get to a point— and also like this was dovetailing with the publication of my husband's book, which went out on a really small press and was like becoming this like cult alt lit sensation after like every agent in New York had passed on the book and nobody wanted it. Come to find like it was selling better than... I don't know. We were making so much money off of his little book. I don't mean his little book, but like his book on a small press and I was just like, okay, there's more than one way to do this. What the establishment thinks will sell is not always what will sell. I got to that point. I like let go of a lot of like my own, like perfectionism and all this stuff. It just sort of like fell off of me. And then at the end of the summer, after I'd gone through so much emotional turmoil, my now editor, Mark Doten, made an offer on the book, and that just felt like: a) Proof positive all you need is one person. And sometimes, you know, the most challenging work is not the work that everybody wants to acquire. And it's not the work that everyone wants to read and feel good about themselves. It's like work that challenges and it's going to push some people and it's going to like be uncomfortable for some people and some people are going to be really seen by it, feel really seen by it. And that's, you know, that's my goal for my work anyway. So I was overjoyed when Mark made an offer on the book. Also, like I loved what Soho was putting out, so I felt like really glad to have landed there. And I think like for the trajectory of my career, I started at a huge price with a big advance and like I think a lot of the times, yes, that is a dream scenario and it's really hard to say no to a lot of money when someone offers it to you. But likew when it's your first book, it can really set you up for challenges down the road because like as we know, a lot of books don't turn out their advances. I think it's like eight out of ten books.
[01:00:58] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah.
[01:00:59] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Jell-O Girls has not earned out its advance still.
[01:01:02] COURTNEY KOCAK Really?
[01:01:03] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah. I mean, that's what happens when you get a big advance. It's a lot of money to make back. And especially if, like, your publisher isn't selling the book the way that you sort of think they should be or, you know, it just gets sticky really quickly. So now I feel like I'm just sort of starting off in a different place with a big indie press that feels like really true to me in my work. And I don't know, it's great. I'm really happy about it.
[01:01:27] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah. Being true to what you think about publishing or whatever, it's kind of like feminism, right? It's like, easier said than done.
[01:01:35] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, totally.
[01:01:38] COURTNEY KOCAK So we talked a little bit about it, but do you know what's next?
[01:01:43] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM I do know what's next. I'm not really ready to talk about it, but it's another novel I have, like, you know, I have a start, I have a plot. That plot will change, I'm sure. But like this time, trying to get that, like, in a good shape before I really go in on the book. But again, like, I know that it'll change no matter what, and I'm going to keep writing— you know, I've had a really nice time writing short fiction recently, that's been really fun. So I'm going to do some more of that. And yeah, I don't know.
[01:02:19] COURTNEY KOCAK What's on the bucket list. Any big goals?
[01:02:22] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Well, you know, I'm so I'm like laser focused on Aesthetica right now in terms of like promoting it and doing everything I can to get it out and successful, which is another big difference from Jell-O Girls. So, you know, Aesthetica in and of itself has been like a bucket list thing for me and there's been a lot of like interest from media outlets and that feels really validating and exciting. You know, there is like a part of me that's like, yes, many people passed on this book, but like now here we are and like a lot of people want to write about it and like interview me and review me. So that feels really good. I think that in the future, like I know that my career is going to grow and change in some direction I can't foresee, but I would really love to get to a point where I can be less, like boots on the ground, like, mailing out books myself. You know, like, I love doing that stuff and everything, but like, promoting Aesthetica has been a full-time job for me these past couple of months or just like, you know, doing PR stuff for myself. And I don't foresee ever not having to do that. And I think it's like realistic for writers to expect to do that stuff for themselves. But like. I guess I would just love to have to do it a little less and to be able to like. Sit back and relax and enjoy the publication process and not hustle like weight so hard, like I will still hustle. I just don't want to hustle, like, quite so hard.
[01:03:58] COURTNEY KOCAK I love that that's the bucket list. Just 10% less, please.
[01:04:03] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, exactly.
[01:04:04] COURTNEY KOCAK What piece of writing advice do you wish you could give your former self?
[01:04:07] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Take your time. It's better to have a really quality piece of writing out there that people are going to love and be excited about and keep reading for years and years and years than to, you know, quickly dash something off and get it out, and have it fall flat in some way. It's really easy now to publish in some ways and I totally, as I stated in this interview, understand the imperative to like rush and just like get it out, but also like. That work will be out there forever and you want to make sure it's your best work.
[01:04:49] COURTNEY KOCAK Yeah. Oh, that's so good. I've been thinking so much about that lately. I'm like, just chill.
[01:04:54] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, just chill.
[01:04:56] COURTNEY KOCAK What's one tip for writers trying to get a book published?
[01:04:59] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM This is, you know, a little bit location dependent, but I don't know if it necessarily is with social media and the Internet, but involve yourself to the extent that you feel comfortable in literary communities. You know, find those communities that you want to be a part of if it's, you know, the scene in New York, find a way to live in New York or visit. If it's not, if it exists online, there's so many little cultures and communities that, you know, one could want to be a part of, like find that and then put yourself out there. A lot of writers can be kind of awkward, so like, don't be awkward. Like find a way to, like, get your bravery going and just introduce yourself and do favors for people. Like it's a great way to learn and grow. But you know, it's also a good way to make friends and alliances that will help you down the line. It sounds so like conniving, but I think like. It's also like a way to be really joyful and in touch with other writers, while also like, setting yourself up for success.
[01:06:02] COURTNEY KOCAK Totally. What's your all time favorite piece of your own writing?
[01:06:06] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Oh my God. I saw this on your pre-questions. I don't know if I can answer that, like.
[01:06:13] COURTNEY KOCAK I know it is a little Sophie's Choice, but.
[01:06:15] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM It's so hard. I will say, like, I published an essay recently. It's called Last of the Long Hot Days. I don't know if it's my favorite, but it is a piece that's talking— it's doing a lot of work to just put out questions that have really been on my mind lately. And like, I guess for that reason right now, it feels kind of precious to me. So yeah, we'll just go with that for now. I know it'll change like tomorrow, but.
[01:06:49] COURTNEY KOCAK What are your social handles? Where are you online?
[01:06:52] ALLIE ROWBOTTOM Yeah, I'm mostly an Instagram writer, so my handle is just my name, it's @allierowbottom. You can find me there. Same handle on Twitter, but I mostly just go there and, like, retweet and leave.
[01:07:07] COURTNEY KOCAK Thank you so much to Allie. That was such a great conversation and she offered so much great perspective. What a treat. So make sure you buy a copy of Aesthetica. And I highly recommend Jell-O Girls if you love a dark feminist takedown of an American classic. That is it for this edition of The Bleeders. But if you're thirsty for more, make sure you check out the last episode. I talked all about manifesting your writing goals through daily practice with Kellianne Benson, community manager and director of 750Words.com. This was actually a hugely popular episode. Here is a little preview.
[01:07:46] KELLIANNE BENSON I get a lot of emails from people who say I don't know what to write about. And they only know that I need to write, but they don't quite know how to get it out. There's a block there. And the biggest piece of advice that I give to them and then I offer myself whenever I feel about block is like, you just have to sit down and dive in. It is— sometimes it feels like work. We all look at finished products, books, songs, all of them. We look at the finished product and we think that this beautiful piece of work just poured out of someone and that's not the case.
[01:08:30] COURTNEY KOCAK Thank you for joining me for this episode of The Bleeders. Writing is so much better with friends. I'm your host, Courtney Kocak. And hey, let's connect on social media. I am @courtneykocak — K-O-C-A-K — on Twitter and Instagram. And make sure you're signed up for The Bleeders companion Substack. The link is in the episode description. Join me again in two weeks for another all new episode. In the meantime, happy bleeding!